Setting the Stage- A conversation about home staging

Join Aaron and his 4one4 Property Co. Real Estate Agent Panel, John McGregor and Patrick Berry, as they discuss the merits of styling a home for sale- whether it be via physical furniture being installed by a styling professional or a photoshop wizard stepping in to give the room a bit of digital furniture.

Join Aaron and his 4one4 Property Co. Real Estate Agent Panel, John McGregor and Patrick Berry, as they discuss the merits of styling a home for sale- whether it be via physical furniture being installed by a styling professional or a photoshop wizard stepping in to give the room a bit of digital furniture.

Transcript of Setting the Stage: A Conversation about Home Staging

Episode: | E83
Show Title: | Setting the Stage: A Conversation about Home Staging
Cast: | Aaron Horne, Patrick Berry & John McGregor
Show Length: | 27 minutes 38 seconds

Aaron: Let's just go straight into it. You can either do it with putting real furniture into the space or you can do it in a computer and you can do a virtual digital space.

Aaron: All right, guys! Welcome back to The Property Pod, your weekly engagement here into real estate in the Hobart marketplace. I'm your host, Aaron Horne, and I'm joined as always by our two real estate agents, Patrick Berry and John McGregor. Good Morning, boys!

Patrick: Good morning, Aaron! Now I noticed in your intro you said weekly, but we haven't actually done weekly the last couple of weeks.

Aaron: You're killing me. So, actually I've had a few people reach out and be like, "what's up with the pod?" "where's the pod been?" "what's happening?"

Patrick: Creative differences? [laughter]

Aaron: The crazy thing is we had such a successful episode leading into it, so we've had a two week hiatus kind of like we've gone on tour as… as a band. It's been like, we've had a hit... 

Patrick:'s time take a break

Aaron: It's time to take a break  [laughter] No, so we had a cracking episode with Tom coming in, talking from Ingenuity Power Solutions. We did actually record another episode. Well, we recorded a video for another episode, however, the audio did not get recorded which is all on me, I apologize.

Patrick: And then to compound issues, when we went to re-record, our entire studio decided to stop working.

Aaron: Yes, I want to get a rig. So, it's funny I've listened to so many podcasts where they talk about these kind of technical issues that plague them and I'm just like,
we've been pretty good in our 82 episodes, so far, never an issue until last, well, we've had issues but we've never really gone this deep into a full system crash, but it's really nice that people have been reaching out and saying like, "hey, where's the pod?"

John: "what are you doing?"

Aaron: Yeah, like is that it, "are you done?" "did you just finish on a...?" [laughter]

Aaron: No, we didn't.

John: It's rare that we've actually, when we've had a break, we're cold, we're having a break. It's just a break, it happens. And then we come back and say, "we're back!"

Aaron: Yeah, so, we are back! We're sorry that we were away; it's great to be back. We've got some great stuff to talk about today but yes, shout out to all those people that have missed The Property Pod. It's nice to be missed and we are back, ready to go with our ghetto rig, so what's been happening?

John: Well, the... I suppose... [laughter]

Patrick: ...not a lot, apparently. During headlights, John?

John: Well, I mean one of the... at the moment, there's a lot of talk in the market where there's still a lot of lack of available stock being available to buy, so it's sort of a moment now where you, there is the potential to be what you could say, a little bit easy, sort of take advantage of the fact that there's so much demand that you don't make the extra effort in getting your situation house prepared to its best, to get the best outcome for yourself. [Aaron: yeah, for sure.] So, I think when what Niño did for us was he found a, what was it, a survey done by the National Association of Realtors now just give perspective on that that's like our Real Estate Institute of Australia, but more so on [Aaron: the ground global level] now on the US level 

Patrick: which is basically global, we met a lot of agents over there

John: You've been average, like and how many there's like a hundred thousand agents attend to those conferences or something crazy?

Patrick: Yeah, some of the big ones are up around those sort of numbers. The one I went to was a lot smaller than that. I think it was about 10 000 people, but still, compare that to 2000 at a conference here, it was... 

Aaron: You still felt like a little fish in a big pond yeah and that was ticket sales, on top of that, then there's just people that go and just hang out [John: yeah, exactly]  they don't actually attend the conference they just network outside the conference  

John: Well, and that's what's so good about that, though, is the volume of numbers with this particular survey where they spoke and reached out to buyers about the idea of presentation and the fact that it just proved that the buyers will engage better with better photos, better presentation, styled properties, etc. So, I think it's a good one that Niño prepared the notes for us, for us just to have another conversation again around making that, why making the effort makes a difference regardless of whatever market you're in.

Aaron: Yeah, most definitely. Like, I think the key stat that he's pulled out straight away is that 89% of buyers just go straight to the photos So 89% of people are just going looking through, your window shopping through the photos, rather than actually kind of reading all this text that goes into it.

Patrick: Nothing's really changed there, like now, people scroll through photos on the internet. You know, back when my old man and your old man were doing it, John, people would walk past all the real estate offices and look at the photo in the window. Yeah well, so the same thing applies, the photo is what draws you in, like and then from there, you explore more.

Aaron: Well, it's like eating at a restaurant. Don't they say that you eat with your eyes first? You kind of, if it looks good, you'll then dive deep into it.

John: Yeah, like you're sitting there, you see a couple having another food--a meal on the other table, you're like, "I'll have that, please".

Patrick: I'm glad you do that , John, because so often, I'll go like I have a couple of friends and we we were touring Tassie at the moment having parmies, like everywhere we go. We're doing a party tour and I'll often see and scope the room "has anyone had a parme? I need to know, is it worth ordering here?"

Aaron: Did you say the parme up at Derby? Where did you say was the best parmy you've had in a long time?

Patrick: I really liked Derby, but my friend, Marcus said it was too saucy so, I didn't know if parme could be too saucy, but 

John: We're still talking about parme, right? [laughter]

Patrick: Yeah, but enough about my parme [laughter]

Aaron: Yeah, let's talk about some saucy property

John: Yeah yeah, absolutely.

Aaron: So, what I wanted to kind of jump into from here is this idea of home staging and preparing these photos that 89% of people are looking at preparing your property the best, to get the best results. So, obviously, you guys are working kind of the marketing side of getting your property ready to go, but you guys have got to have the conversations with the vendors and say like, "I think this is the best way of getting the best result for your property". What I've kind of got from Niño here is a definition of home staging, so I thought we could break that down go into that and then we could just kind of talk about the way that it kind of spreads into, I think last time we did this conversation, I broke it down into John's way and Pat's way. Pat wasn't too happy with it.

Patrick: I think it's [ __ ] [laughter]

John: it's way... it's all ways that work.

Aaron: There are numerous ways to do it.

Patrick: But you can still go. John can explain option one, I'll explain option two, but full disclosure, I'm happy with both. [laughter]

Aaron: All right, so if we just read out this definition that we've got here, so Home Staging is the preparation of a private residence/property for sale in the real estate marketplace or in inverted commerce, "setting the stage". So, it's kind of like anything you're setting the stage for it to be presented in its best light setting it, to be... it's like getting ready for the school formal. We looked through the Mercury yesterday and we saw all the old school Mercury formal pictures. It's like those people set themselves up just to look absolutely stunning at that time. At their time in their lives, so that's the perfect jumping off point for, at that time in their life, they thought they looked the best that they could look. You think your house looks the best that it can look, however, sometimes, you've got a bit of retail blindness. You're not really 100% sure that it looks up to market standard. What do we do?

John: Well, there's a couple of concepts to put together here. So, we're looking at presentation, specifically in the process of selling, that you're gonna we're going to be doing our best to make sure the house looks presentable, as well to have a better experience for buyers, because one of the most important things is obviously, people are going to want to be able to visualize the property's potential either bit as an investment property or to live in, and quite often, many people have a real difficulty in being able to see themselves in a vacant space or in a house that's just completely... that's got someone else's stuff in it that doesn't quite make sense. Now, what I mean by makes sense is that every little space in your home needs a purpose and that might be a lounge room designed as a lounge room, a bedroom's a bedroom, an office space is an office space, because for instance, like if you have what would be an office space then you throw in a bed in there, someone's going to go, "oh my god, the bedroom's tiny. This is just this; this is useless" but when design is an office like, "oh my god! This is a really good useful space that we can use" and dad had a story once where he was showing a property, this is the days before photos, obviously, but it's a good one.

Aaron: What? Your dad was around before photos were invented?

John: That's right, yeah. Well he... it's he's been around a long time. You could reference him in John Luke 6:17 [laughter] But he actually... he used to a couple of times he actually sketched images, because he's quite a good artist for the newspaper when it was advertised interestingly enough, so, in this example

Aaron: How did that not come up when we had him on the show? 

John: We did say we'd get him back, for this would be a multi-part series

Aaron: Getting to do some courtroom drawings of holy moly the man's got so many talents

 John: Yeah, so with the... in his example, there was a house that he kept showing and they effectively had the lounge room in the dining, and the dining in the lounge room, and the feedback constantly was is like, people were saying, "oh my god! The dining room's massive, but what am I going to do with this lounge room--it's tiny?" and he just said to the owners, "look, do you mind if I rearrange your house?" So, he effectively just dragged all the furniture to where it should be and then with the next round of buyers that he got through, they're like "wow, this is a big lounge room" "wow, this is a big dining space" and he ended up in a multiple office situation just by mere virtue of restyling the home.

Patrick: So, you're saying, he basically invented property styling.

John: Absolutely! [laughter]

Aaron: So, this is where we're talking about setting the stage, so it's kind of like, you can be in the space for a long time and you can be like, "oh, this is the only place that the couch goes" or the trouble might be that you've got a massive couch it's the only couch you could afford at the time you had it from your last house, you put it into this place, and [Patrick: it doesn't work] it doesn't work in the new place, but life gets in the way you've got to go with it.

Patrick: You know the amount of times that we're going to houses and people have a fridge that doesn't fit in the fridge space, so it's just sitting in the hallway or some random position because unfortunately, they couldn't go and buy a new fridge for the actual house, so they just worked with the one they have, but this is exactly what we're talking about. Sometimes, the furniture you own doesn't own... doesn't necessarily show the house in its best light, so what can we do to bring to the table to help make the house more presentable?

Aaron: Yeah, most definitely and then this is where last time we broke off into kind of there's a John approach and a Pat approach, so I was saying that there's basically, let's just go straight into it. You can either do it with putting real furniture into the space or you can do it in a computer and you can do a virtual [Patrick: digital space] a digital space…

Patrick: So, let's start with real furniture

Aaron: Yeah, well, let's just go straight down. We've spoken to Adam from Shift before. Shift Property Styling is there, a local company that will come in and consult. Well, John, you talk to Adam all the time. Would you like to break this down?

John: Well, as we agreed now, it's like, it's we like both approaches that's not ours…

Patrick: John is the only one who uses Adam, like... [laughter]

John: Well, it's quite cool if you go to their warehouse. It's effectively just a giant furniture store with multiple rows. We visited him at the time we had him on the podcast, but what their sole job is to choose the right furniture to fit in your space that makes the property look as best as it possibly can. [Aaron: Setting the stage] --setting the stage. And, I mean, a game when we sold mum and dad's house, it actually went off; we sold it off market. It didn't advertise, but we still staged it first because it was a big four or five bedroom home.

Patrick: Well, it was a property that was unusual for jiggle, so we had to make it stand out and that's what you did with the staging.

John: Absolutely, absolutely. And where it was... where it is effective in the physical space is because you are walking around, you're looking at windows, for example, you're experiencing what it's like in the home. Sometimes, people will sit on the styled furniture. So, what it'll do by doing it correctly is it's going to maximize the space in every single room regardless of how big the room is. So, what I mean by that is we had a... or to give an example, we had one at 10 McGuinnes Crescent in Lennah Valley where this was a process where before the property was gone to market, it was original carpets, the family been there their whole life. It hadn't been painted yet so we had this discussion around pricing expectations. Now the time was around about 400 grand. Now, we all agreed that the owners would be like, "you know what, let's rip out the carpet, let's polish the boards, and paint the walls" and so we did. We revisited the property. Now, our expectations have changed to about the mid-fours and then I said, "look I encouraged them to bring Adam in to do a style consult with the furniture" and that's when then they had this huge lounge room which really had to be split into two sections, because it was too big, so that's what he did like lounge and dining, and then the kitchen was just like a square box where like, "oh my god, what the hell do we do with this?" well, he ended up bringing in just a very simple circular dining table that was glass, for example, so you could still see through the space and yet you still had sitting area so it didn't take away from the kitchen all of a sudden. You're like, "wow, this is a really nice separate kitchen and I've got a little place to have breakfast" and once the styling was done, well then, our expectations moved well. You know what? We're sort of... we probably should up the offers over 465 at this point. And by the time the campaign was finished, I think the final accepted contract was 495 

Aaron: Yeah, so what a massive jump from just the idea of kind of consulting with someone and saying like, "this is what we think could maximize" and again, we keep saying it in this episode, but setting the stage for the best result 
Patrick: So, ballpark, what do you reckon those owners spent to be able to make that extra hundred thousand dollars um?

John: So, on furniture, I think it was around about three and a half to four, specifically, but then, with the renovations, with all the work, I think, they spent about 20 to 25. So, it's about 30 grand, but they needed 60. Yeah, exactly. And that's, I suppose, an element of it where the good thing where the the in-person furniture element is that's where that real... once they're in the property, that's where that a real emotional connection can be generated which is obviously, then if people have fallen over the place, they're more inclined to obviously make an offer.

Patrick: Well, people now make offers including the furniture that Adam puts into the property. [John agrees] and that's really clever with how he's pivoted his business that he can actually now sell the furniture that lives inside the house so...

Aaron: Yeah, this is really cool. I've noticed there's a few barcodes that appear on things, so, when they're doing kind of the install, they'll kind of scan it in and work out, "oh, this has been used here, six times here..."

Patrick: "...I can sell it for x," so he's got a very clever system that allows people to be able to now walk in and say, "that picture you put in that hallway, that's stunning. Can I have it?
Can I just have the whole room?" I literally have this living room, because it's exactly what I fell in love with and let's go from there.

Patrick: So, it's really clever how he's pivoted his business to be able to do that, so, hats off to him.

John: Well, we had one in Claremont recently where the clients they had bought the house with the styled furniture, and when they came back, like, "let's style it again" because they just knew that they were connected with the house and then that's why they wanted it to do the same thing when they're reselling it [Aaron agrees] so, sometimes as well, it's actually giving the buyers a better experience, so that they can actually make an informed decision that's close to their heart and…

Aaron: Well, I think the heart's the key part there, because obviously, you want... we were talking about the stock being kind of quite low at the moment, and it's hard to kind of find the right place, but if you're getting that emotional investment straight away by being like, "this place is stunning" like "this is the one that I've fallen in love with," you might be more inclined to make that offer just that little bit more to get that deal across the line. [John: absolutely!] So, it's one of those things where you're kind of investing your money into the heart field that you'll get from the people that are coming into the place.

Patrick: The only downfall, though, is that you can't always do styled furniture. 

Aaron: No, so that's where I thought we could pivot from here into Pat's area of expertise [Patrick: yes!] [laughter]

Patrick: Move on, John. 

John: You're old school. [laughter]

Aaron: So, what I wanted to jump to here was this idea of digital staging and it's kind of becoming a lot more popular now and especially in some of these places where well, a really good example that I've got is, we went into a property just recently and took the photos. It was tentative; it was quite messy. There was just stuff everywhere. The people were in the process of moving, it wasn't that they were unable to keep it tidy, it was just simply, there was just stuff everywhere and they couldn't move it yet, but we needed to take the photos. We needed to market the property. We took the photos, I was like, "these are pretty rough, I need to do something to get this a little bit better, so I said, "Oh Pat, I'm going to do a furniture removal; I'm going to take everything out of the room; I'm going to get it all clear." We sorted it out, it was empty. 

Patrick: Now, just so people understand, when we do furniture removal, it's literally not altering the size of the room or the look of the room or the condition of the room, it's literally just taking a bed or some boxes out of the room completely, and making it an empty space. And we do that by like using the paint that's already around that object and just basically whitening it out.

Aaron: Yeah, we're not kardashian-ing the room and kind of changing the curves of the space or anything like that, we're just simply taking what's there, the information that we have, and then putting it

Patrick: just to make it look better online.

Aaron: Yeah, and to show like, "this is what the room looks like empty" It's not officially empty at the moment, but this is what you'll see when you get here, when it is empty. Once was empty, I was kind of like, "man, I wonder what would happen if I put furniture back in--just nice tidy furniture?" So, I've actually got this example and I'll put it up on our... 

John: Well, since you're now editing today's episode, since we're not recording normally you'll be able to edit that photo in as

Aaron: I can do that [the other two react] so anyone watching the visual you're about to see what we're talking about so, yes we'll have boom boom boom, you'll see the game, so the transformation is just insane. It's kind of you've gone from this is the space and some people might say that you're kind of you're lying. "This is not what I get when I walk into the space, but again, it's just giving an impression of "this is what the space can look like" we're not taking walls out we're not doing any digital renovations which is another thing that is possible. We're not doing that in these cases, what we're simply doing is…
Patrick: ...just presenting the property in its best light

Aaron: Setting the stage. So, Pat, why is this a good thing to be doing?

Patrick: Look, at the end of the day, we want people to be able to inquire about a property and we want people to be able to move from the real search results and actually move forward onto the actual property tab and sometimes that's as simple as just having some photos that gain a little bit more attraction and [John: absolutely] that little bit more sort of interest in something. And you've got two problems: you've got a cluttered room that looks messy maybe, that's not enough for someone to click on it because they just can't see past the mess or sometimes, you have an empty room that's just a blank room and it's boring

John: What do I do with this? 

Patrick: Yeah, so they can't envision what the space can be, so all we're trying to do is help people's own imagination understand the space better so that we can get the inquiry and obviously, get the lead to start talking to them about what the future of the property could be

Aaron: Yeah, because obviously, well, we've just discussed that you can purchase the furniture from a company like Shift, but obviously, when you're going into a showing of a house, you're not getting…

Patrick: So, that's the downfall when you use digital furniture is that we can get that excitement in the initial consultation, but we lose that when they potentially go to the property [John: yeah, absolutely] but it doesn't affect like, it's not the end of the world, but like it still works like you do help to Laurie, one of our Sales Consultants, on one down at midway point [John agrees] so what was the story in that one? Well, something about a big couch?

John: Yeah, it was they had that effectively had what was a nine-seater couch in a two-bedroom unit, so when when people were coming up, so Laurie asked me to come in as a like, a Styling Consultant, as a Marketing Consultant, you could say. It was just nice to have a little separation of voice to the vendors, so I could but, I could say what Laurie couldn't, you could say and they'd listen. Now, what i just said straight off the bat is I was just envisioning where you were going to be taking... Aaron is going to be taking the photos, and every angle that you looked at this couch was just dead center like, what the hell is this monstrosity in this house

Patrick: Were you walking into the corner of the room and like framing up

John: Yeah yeah, please say you work because that would be so funny

Aaron: I can 100% picture John doing that being like, "this is where i would stand" and yeah 

John: Absolutely! Well, that's our job. [Aaron: I appreciate it] and so then, I saw I went back with the fair buck, I said, "go, they have to get rid of this couch" you know even if this couch isn't here, it's just because that was in the living area; it's a detriment to the actual property, because it was too high in terms of its back, so, it was past the window lines in the... if you imagine: rather than a floor-to-ceiling window seeing all through it, if there's a little bit of a gap, the couch is too big, so it's just taking away. It was in the way when you walk through the front door, you immediately went out, you could walk straight through to the deck, the couch again was in the way, so what I just said, "look, we have to just get rid of this couch" and so what that did then the second it was, well, that obviously opened up the unit because it's a really nice open plan; had a lot of space.

Aaron: oh yeah, it was a beautiful unit.

John: But the thing is, have a like
a low back three-seater couch with maybe a side as opposed to a nine-seater round thing that can pretty much just enclose the space. 

Patrick: And that's where digital furniture came in these particular owners weren't in a position to afford to do the Shift option, so we went with the digital option.It worked really well.

Aaron: And so again, that's another area where there's a difference in pricing point for the two things. it's kind of you could get a full house with digital furniture for a few hundred bucks; you could get a full house with furniture that's there for the person for the showing,  three or four thousand, so you've got to kind of work out what works best for you. One thing that we've discussed is when you walk into a house that is styled physically, is that you know people get the feel and people can fall in love with the stuff and they get that by the touch and looking at it from all the different angles, whereas a digital one is kind of giving you the vision or the implication of "this is what it can look like when you walk in, you might see it as the empty space" which I know some agents have had issues with, "oh I don't know what I say when I get there," I guess, this is a point of offering just saying like, "oh look, the furniture was added digitally, but we just wanted to give you an idea of how it can fit". You can set it up however you want.

John: Well, going back to the survey, is it specifically said based on the survey administered by the National Association of Realtors, the sale price of the home increased from 1 to 15% through staging. Now, if we think of what that means, is that if you've got a $500 000 sale, well, okay, the staging might cost you one percent of your potential sale price, but it goes to show that at the very least, you'll absolutely get that back dollar for dollar, but then the upside potential is enormous and I remember watching this video of a professional stylist, I think, who did  big New York apartments. Her warehouse was like the size of Bunnings, not really, but it was massive. However, they hire for her services, it would go up to nearly two hundred thousand dollars, because they would actually... they would do custom designed, you know, if they had a dining table where the seats didn't match the stitching, they would un-stitch the table then re-stitch it. It was a massive business. And then, it might be 200 grand, but then of course, the sale of the loft was like 45 million.

Aaron: Yeah, so you put it into…

Patrick: ...perspective design

John: Exactly, and I think that's a really good thing to note. A lot of the time with marketing, where at the front face, it may seem like, "oh, that's really expensive!' but we're really talking about, what's your return on your investment, and inevitably, it's always worth spending the money or another, what's more so, investing the time and the effort and lastly, of course, the money and which is a challenge for many people, we're not all in the same situation, and that's why it's good to have to have this discussion around both options. Digital might be the better way to go or we can go all the way if we've got the time as well to do the
personal styling and it's just encouraging to know that the stats would back it up to say if you do the work, it makes a difference.

Aaron: I might be way off, but aren't there there's companies that can help you afford? Aren't there ones that are set up to be like, if you need this extra money for the marketing…

Patrick: Yeah, so what you're referring to is like the after pay of real estate marketing. [the other two agree] the company we use is called "List Ready"

Aaron: That's it! I knew...

Patrick: What they do is basically, we put towards a marketing package to the vendor. The vendor agrees to it then List Ready are happy to do an interest-free loan, basically, for the period of the sale process and then obviously, they get paid out of the sale proceeds at the end, so there are options there if you can't quite afford a potential marketing package, but you're excited by the prospect of it. There's definitely options that we can help facilitate to make the process move.

Aaron: ...for sure! And this is something to talk to you, guys, about. This is why you engage a real estate agent who will give you their opinion on what is the best method of attack: whether it be the old school, John or the new school, Pat, who is open to old school ways and John is open to new school ways, so... 

John: But it's more fun if you put it in a competitive sense

Aaron: Most definitely [laughter]

Patrick: But i think there should be no reason why at the end of the day, guys like you and Sebastian, from our media team, can't produce a good-looking property

Aaron: Oh no, a thousand percent. And like, we're all up for kind of…

Patrick: There is no photo that should be bad

Aaron: No, well, yeah we try to set our standard up being like we want people to not scroll by and think like, "oh yuck, that was..." And the thing is we want the best for the vendors as well, like we're here to make you guys look good and we're here to help sell the property or rent the property. We don't want the things to look bad, so we're going to put that extra…

John: I remember seeing a photo once we're at the top right hand corner, that was just a big box of rat poison, and I thought, maybe you could just angle or cut the photo just a little bit or maybe worse there, you can just do a bit of digital removal. We did have to digitally remove a a glass ornament. Think of that as your wheel, but yeah, recently, there was a glass ornament in a room that we had to maneuver? We just felt that would be the most appropriate course of action

Aaron: but that's again, talk to your vendors; talk to anyone else [laughter]

Patrick:Could be as simple as also the agent having a conversation about that class 

Aaron: Well, it was there when the photo shoot happened .We were required to remember, we felt it was the best course of action 

John: And I think, going back to that first story about selling mum and dad's house is that it's a good example is that we are believers in what was, what we suggest and again, that never... like the photos, the videos, where everything was organized, but ended up selling off market because we introduced it through from another buyer but because of that experience, they got to have inside the home with it styled, meant that they were really ready to make a decision and obviously, we negotiated a price that both parties are really happy with to stop it from going to market 

Aaron: Yeah, so it wasn't like a waste of money in inverted commerce, because you styled it and nobody else get to saw it. It was, you styled it, the perfect couple came in, and was just like...

John: What do we have to do?

Aaron: Perfect, love it! Well boys, I think that is this episode, the second time around We've done pretty well, hopefully, when I shut down all my ghetto rig, this has been recorded. If there's no podcast out this week, I retire [laughter] I'm out, I quit, I'm moving back to the Kimberley. 

Patrick: Cool. Thanks, gentlemen!

Aaron: All right, guys. Thank you! See you!  

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